Church & Change

Pasted from former Bailing Water blog:

Saturday, February 2, 2008
Ok let's work for change - Let's kick it up a notch
BW Partners -

I'm back (at least for this post).

And I have a new idea that I thought we should try before we bail!!! (We are going to try and reach our target audience more effectively - the Church and Change group). Let's flood their ballot box.

Let's start a grass roots effort. Please visit the Church and Change website.

http://www.churchandchange.org/

Submit your ideas for the next Conference in November 2009 (?). They are thinking way ahead.

I encourage you to leave your suggested idea as a comment on BW too.



How 'bout these ideas for the next conference:
A study of the historic western rite --

Communion (how often is too much)

A workshop on the Book of Concord

Valid Lutheran sources for my next sermon

Do we need to cite our sources? (St. Mark's is now citing their sermon sources)

Copyright laws - are they adiophora?

Teaching the laity the liturgy - Oprah style


Hate going to Church

Posted by John at 11:38 AM

Labels: Church and Change


22 comments:
Anonymous said...
John,

Despite all the heat you took for posting the Parlow sermons, it looks like some good has come of it. Parlow is now citing his sources, and the sources appear to be sources where copyright violations are not an issue. But even more importantly, the sermons actually have law and Gospel. Good for him, but even better for his congregation.

February 2, 2008 1:42 PM
Anonymous said...
I thought you were done! Your suggestion isn't a bad one, but when you say you're not going to do the blog anymore, then you shouldn't.

February 2, 2008 10:09 PM
RandomDan said...
That is not a guy I would want my 5th-7th grader hanging around.

Crosswalk seems to be taking their cues from being Ablaze!(TM)

February 2, 2008 10:56 PM
Kitten...purrr...haha.. said...
That puppy dude (is that what he is?)is scary!

I hate cheesy gimmicks.

I agree the "Ignite" is a knockoff of the ABLAZE! label. Not sure what a grown man dressed up as a puppy has to do with anything though. So very confusing.

February 3, 2008 4:46 AM
Anonymous said...
I saw the sources cited for Pastor Parlow's sermon.
I may be dense but I thought the WELS' pastors' sermon sources were Scripture and only Scripture. Isn't that what the seminary teaches in the homiletics class?

February 3, 2008 11:17 PM
Anonymous said...
Looks like if people can't fight about the frequency of communion they don't want to comment.

February 4, 2008 8:59 PM
Bespoke said...
Barna is big at Fuller Seminary. It's nice to know where things are stolen from. One poet said, "Steal from the best." That would be new for Parlow and Kelm.

February 4, 2008 10:47 PM
Augie said...
Women teaching men? It can be ok.

The woman is not to teach publicly when she thereby becomes a lord over the man. It is against this that also the whole argumentation in this passage is directed. Where, therefore, dominion over the man and modest reserve do not come into consideration, as for example in school, or in an assembly of women, or in an assembly of men or a mixed assembly in which there is a lack of men with gifts making them apt to teach and able to pray and prophesy, and a woman has received both-as a special gift has received the ability to pray and prophesy publicly or has received instructions from God-there she not only may, as in 1 Corinthians 11, but according to Joel 2:28ff.; Acts 2:17f.; 21:9; 1 Corinthians 12:7; Ephesians 4:16 she must pray prophesy, teach, always, of course, observing modest reserve. The public praying, prophesying, teaching of the woman is not in itself immoral or unevangelical (naturally, much less that which is done in private).

February 5, 2008 8:41 AM
Anonymous said...
I don't think women in general are qualified for any intellectual positions outside the church.

The woman does not belong in the pulpit as long as there are men who have the ability for the public ministry of the church. In addition to the reasons adduced above, there is the fact that the woman is not in the same measure as the man skilled in instructing; adept at ruling, at punishing, at battling; prudent; interested in bare principle; consistent; unyielding; and truly pedagogical, even if by way of exception it can also be otherwise. God himself through the creation and the order of creation has made and appointed the male species for the coarse, heavy, and great physical and intellectual work in the world and also in the church. The woman is not to be there as an equally important participant in the work of the world, but as …a corresponding help beside the man.

February 5, 2008 8:44 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous,

You say women are not "equally important"? What cave did you crawl out of?

February 5, 2008 9:06 AM
Dog Catcher said...
So this puppy dude from Crosswalk -is this a WELS church? I guess I shouldn't be suprized. It's too bad that one has to dig so far just to find out that there is a Lutheran affiliation with it - Arizona Lutheran Academy. Since the out-ward identification is so occluded, it makes one wonder if the marks of the true Church aren't far behind in becoming secondary as well.

What is relevant? You can't handle Relevance!

February 5, 2008 9:11 AM
Anonymous said...
"Looks like if people can't fight about the frequency of communion they don't want to comment."

Why do you despise the Lord's Supper? Why do you want us to starve?

February 5, 2008 11:22 AM
Anonymous said...
"You say women are not "equally important"? What cave did you crawl out of?"

That sounds familiar. I think he's a famous WELS theologian.

February 5, 2008 1:31 PM
Tico said...
"If you hate going to church, CrossWalk was built with you in mind. At CrossWalk we're casual in our approach, yet what we have to communicate is extremely serious stuff."

So in other words they have to have a dog-boy to make it serious? Or casual? I'm afraid I'm missing the point here. But maybe their line on their web page offers a little LAW to me:

"They spoke their minds and stepped on toes, especially the toes of the religious establishment."

And - "Meet you wherever you're at
Engage you where your soul meets real life
Teach you, not preach at you
Help you really deeply understand what's in the Bible
Challenge you to whole-hearted faith in God
And do all of that in a way that's not wimpy or hypocritical."

Oh, I do finally get it!! "The ends do justify the means." Sorry to have to quote C. Peter Wagner.

"That's lame (Ignite! Dog-Boy) no matter how they slice it. It's so missguided in so many ways. It's out of touch with the truth of the real message of the Bible." A quote from a friend (ELCA) as I showed him the web site from Cross walk!

Tico

February 5, 2008 3:53 PM
Anonymous said...
"Teach you, not preach at you"

No wonder John the Baptizer was killed.

February 5, 2008 4:30 PM
Anonymous said...
RE CrossWalk - - -
I have a concern that the statement below is on their webstie but I cannot find any mention of ever offering the Lord's Supper for forgiveness, life and salvation. Perhaps I just missed it.
Quote:
"Our CrossWalk Cafe puts out a huge spread every Sunday, with great coffee, bagels and donuts, along with fruit and juice for the health-conscious. If you didn't get a chance to have breakfast, don't worry! You can count on CrossWalk to feed you body and soul!"

February 5, 2008 6:51 PM
Kat said...
"I don't think women in general are qualified for any intellectual positions outside the church."

Interesting. It's nice to come here and realize that I'm not "intellectual" enough to do anything in this life--even outside the church.

Praise God my husband is not like you. *I* and women like me are raising the next generation as has millions of women before me.

You do not have to insult and demean women to uphold Biblical principles.

The fact that you are unable to be respectful is proof that you now little to nothing of God's Word.

What you say has no importance to me. You do not have my respect.

February 5, 2008 6:55 PM
Jen said...
Anonymous who stated:
The woman does not belong in the pulpit as long as there are men who have the ability for the public ministry of the church. In addition to the reasons adduced above, there is the fact that the woman is not in the same measure as the man skilled in instructing; adept at ruling, at punishing, at battling; prudent; interested in bare principle; consistent; unyielding; and truly pedagogical, even if by way of exception it can also be otherwise. God himself through the creation and the order of creation has made and appointed the male species for the coarse, heavy, and great physical and intellectual work in the world and also in the church. The woman is not to be there as an equally important participant in the work of the world, but as …a corresponding help beside the man.


Are you WELS?

-and-


That was a sarcastic posting wasn't it?

February 5, 2008 7:23 PM
Augie said...
Jen and Kat,

Actually those two posts - I forgot to sign the second one after I posted the first - aside from the first brief sentence were quotes from August Pieper, one of the great Wisconsin Synod theologians. That is your "Wauwatosa Theology."

I am not wels, and it wasn't a sarcastic post, just quotin' WS theologians.

And, no, I do not agree with what he wrote and his theology. What I have found is that most in the WS don't agree with their own theology either.

"Augie" (aka August Pieper)

February 5, 2008 8:15 PM
Tico said...
Hi Anon,
Quote:
"Our CrossWalk Cafe puts out a huge spread every Sunday, with great coffee, bagels and donuts, along with fruit and juice for the health-conscious. If you didn't get a chance to have breakfast, don't worry! You can count on CrossWalk to feed you body and soul!"

February 5, 2008 6:51 PM

This is exactly what I was getting at in my other post. I mentioned about the outward identification of the Lutheran Church being occluded and then the marks of the Church (baptism and communion) seem to be at risk of also being occluded and take on a secondary role, or at least a less visible role. The true meal and banquet of Christ's love and forgiveness can then be at risk of becoming an after-thought. The Soul Cafes are just so, well casual and umm, less boring. They could have at least said, "feed your body and then your soul with the real meal of true forgivenss that was wrought by Christ and given to us in the Holy Supper."

This kind of occlusion reminds me of a very funny exchange in movie "This is Spinal Tap." About their songs: "We say love your bother. We'll we don't actually SAY it. But we mean it....well I don't know if we even mean it, but it's in there, it's in there!"

Tico

February 6, 2008 9:26 AM
Kat said...
Thanks for the clarfication Augie, I appreciate it.

February 6, 2008 2:41 PM
ex-WELS said...
The Wauwatosa Theology doesn't seem so worth defending when you actually read it.

These dictionary theologians are the reason I left the WELS.

ex-WELS

February 6, 2008 4:16 PM
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So, has anyone submitted their ideas?

I wonder...things having seemingly slowed down a bit. I wonder if they will have Oprah style Bible study now that Oprah is preaching a new age religion.

yeah, i'll submit an idea. how about if these church and change people continue to want to change my traditional, liturgical, scripturaly sound church into some kind of touchy feely love fest with a praise band humming in the background, i submit they break away from MY church and start their own religion or simply join the bapist church down the street where they can get all the reformed doctrine they want. they may bring in a few more people but i'm betting even more are considering going elsewhere if that robert schuller-like fuller seminary theology becomes the norm. it seems like the WELS would be well on their way to making a split. i may as well just join the local ELCA church rather than make the effort to drive 20 miles to my local WELS. it used to be that you could depend on every WELS church being the same doctrinally sound church from congregation to congregation. i travel alot in my job and have visited many different WELS churches around the country. now days one never knows what will happen once their seated in that pew. shame on the weak-knee laity who've let that happen in their churches.

Can a congregation be "doctrinally sound" but not offer a "traditional, liturgical" service? The Bible and the Confessions offer only one answer. Since when has a "liturgical" (and there is not one agreed upon definition even upon people on his blog - perhaps another topic) service become the litmus test for orthodoxy? If we don't have a processional cross are we less orthodox than those who do? If one uses an organ is he more Lutheran than the one who uses the guitarist? Organs were not available in the early NT church but lyres, strings, tambourines, percussion, and horns were. Let's make sure we don't allow personal preferences, especially in worship, to be exalted to the status of biblical prescription. For any of us to do so is legalism and that is not what biblical Lutherans are about.

I also think it is somewhat "interesting" that there is a concern about the Reformed connection to "contemporary" formats but almost nothing said about the Roman Catholic connection to our "traditional" formats. There are blessings and cautions with each.