How much work should be expected from a pastor?

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How much work should be expected from a pastor?

Post  Rob on Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:37 am

From Bailing Water Blog:

Anonymous said...
Here is a somewhat different topic regarding the public ministery.

How much work should be expected from a pastor?

We have a pastor who seems to believe that it is the church council's (of which I am a member) responsibility to come up with a "ministery plan" to spread the Gospel bring more people to church.

Our pastor does not believe in canvassing the neighborhood or other old fashioned outreach programs. As far as I can tell, he has never come up with a ministery plan of his own. Don't they teach things like this at the Seminary?

Our church is aging and has been shrinking over the years.

Some have complained that our pastor does not work hard enough, does not due enough shut-in visits, etc. Our church only has one service per week; no midweek service; no bible class during the summer (although we do have a vacation bible school for one week). People are asking how he spends his time.

Be honest, what is working in your churches (at least those that are experiencing non-shrinking membership)? Be specific as to the programs that you have enacted in your congregations.

Also, have any of you experienced what might be considered a "lazy" pastor in your congregation? Pastors and called workers, have you known fellow workers who might be less than ambitious in fufilling their duties?

I really don't know where to begin

June 18, 2008 9:42 PM
Anonymous said...
You ask:

"Be honest, what is working in your churches (at least those that are experiencing non-shrinking membership)? Be specific as to the programs that you have enacted in your congregations."

The ONLY thing that "works" is the WORD proclaimed through the Means of Grace (Word and Sacraments). And it is the Holy Spirit that "works", not us, not programs. It is NOT about shrinking memberships. It is okay if your membership is shrinking. Encourage your pastor to faithfully proclaim God's Word...it does not return void...and God's will and purpose is done through His Word.
I hope you do not think that you need to implement "programs" that "work". I hope you have not been led in that direction.
You are in my prayers.

June 19, 2008 5:16 PM
Anonymous said...
Have you bothered to ask your pastor what he does with his time, or are you just complaining about him behind his back?

June 19, 2008 6:33 PM
Anonymous said...
Dear Anonymous #2,

Your Pastor may well be more concerned that members of his congregation actively consider the infinite value of Christ's work on their behalf, the benefit of which is freely given to them through faith, that from the wellspring of genuine Joy and Gratitude which follows they struggle to find ways to express it in overt attempts to spread the Gospel -- to joyfully struggle in the task because they desperately want others to hear the precious Gospel message.

Through the 1990's, our congregation of about 150 communicant members suffered a 16% loss of membership, while our community grew by 30%. All other things being equal, this was a rather unexpected statistic. At the same time, our Pastor's direct participation in areas that were the responsibility of the men of our congregation's various Board's seemed to wane during this period. Not that our Pastor is anything but diligent and hard working, but the counseling issues are more complex these days, district work is more taxing especially with the insidious doctrinal challenges that continuously barrage us, and the tooling to do the job (i.e., technology) has changed dramatically over the course of his ministry, and keeps on changing. The reasons could go on. It's harder work now than it was 60 years ago, and there is not as much of one pastor to go around like there once was. Not that any of this has anything to do with our decline in membership, but we certainly were constrained by the facts from pointing to him as the cause. In many ways, we felt that our little flock was being culled by our Good Shepherd.

Regardless, in 2002, being lean and mean by that time, our congregation's Board of Evangelism took the bull by the horns (that is, showed the leadership expected of us) and embarked on a six-year redevelopment of our entire approach to congregational-level evangelism -- to include considerable mass-appeal, to emphasize Bible study and Church attendance of our members, and to put to use those individuals in our congregation with the motivation and gifts to serve as evangelists. 2002 was the first year of my two three-year terms on the Board. In the ensuing time, our congregation has grown stronger and closer, we are more outgoing and more visible in the community, we have a reputation in the area as doctrinally strong yet evangelical. More importantly, the Holy Spirit has worked through the overt use of Law and Gospel that is present in our mass appeal efforts, by drawing visitors to our congregation, and has further worked through the personal efforts of individuals in our congregation, not to mention terrific Law & Gospel preaching on Sundays, to produce prospects from these visitors, to produce new Christians, and also new members. We are no longer shrinking, but growing. The Holy Spirit works through the Gospel in Word in Sacrament, no doubt, but confining the propagation of the Gospel message to the church sanctuary on Sunday is in no way shape or form evangelism. The Word must go out, and it ought to be a deliberate effort. This is what we did.

But don't kid yourself, while it is the Holy Spirit alone, working through the Gospel in Word and Sacrament, Who produces and strengthens faith in the hearts of individuals and causes the Church to grow, the job of sending out the Word in a way that effectively communicates it's message is a Boatload of work. Yes, that's Boatload with a capital "B".

For example, early on, as we were struggling with the why's and the wherefore's of what we were doing, our Board spent several hours a week in meeting, researching, writing, debating, brainstorming, etc. For a couple of years I was up all night at least once a month. Finding ways of spreading the Word in our community, and then actually spreading it, was (and continues to be) important to us -- it's worth the effort. And, yes, evangelism is our effort, it is something we do.

At the end of my second term on the Board of Evangelism (last January), I produced a written report detailing our development process, and justifying our approach to doing evangelism in our community, along with reporting our current status and future objectives. You're welcome to it, if you like. But don't expect it to be a recipe that will work in every congregation in every community. You have to do the research (especially if your Pastor can't or won't). You have to understand your community (it's specific needs) and your congregation (it's specific capabilities), to determine where true evangelism opportunities lie for your congregation, and where to direct your limited evangelism resources. What you may get from my report is the type of information we considered, where we got it, what questions we sought to answer with it, etc. It may give you some ideas.


Bailing Water Blog

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Re: How much work should be expected from a pastor?

Post  Rob on Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:51 am

As a result of job transfers over the years, I've been a member of many different WELS congregations and observed many different pastoral styles. The pastor described by the poster on Bailing Water BLOG reminds me of a pastor I had in 1985-1988. He told us that it was his job to preach but not to knock on doors. If we brought visitors in, he would preach to them. His wife worked, and he had supper ready for her when she returned home every evening. The Mission Board shut down that congregation in 1992.

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Re: How much work should be expected from a pastor?

Post  john on Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:44 pm

Thanks for cranking out this topic. I am anxious to read the comments on this topic. The current "everyone is a minister" perspective has changed how many WELS ministers view their calling.

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Boy, do I have experience with lazy pastors!

Post  brucechurch on Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:06 pm

I think that, just as with teacher's unions, one much hold
pastors accountable for doing outreach if their workload is
not heavy. Then if the synod doesn't respect that, change
synods or go independent. Sooner or later they'll get the
message. See this entry

Tuesday, March 6, 2007 When Synods Become Like Teacher Unions
http://lutherannotes.blogspot.com/2007/03/when-synods-become-like-teacher-unions.html

excerpt: Ok, how does this fit in with pastors and synods?
one might ask. Well, what is a pastor decides in his
infinite wisdom not to do a task, or do a task well,
just like many teachers decided that spelling wasn't
important in past decades?

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RE: How much work should be expected from a pastor?

Post  Freddy Finkelstein on Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:50 am

Since I was quoted by Rob, below (I was the one who responded to "Anonymous #2," which in Rob's cut-n-paste from the blog, is really Anonymous #1), I guess I'll offer my thoughts on this issue. I don't know if I will answer the question, How much work should be expected from a pastor?, but, as a result of a fairly great deal of business travel, attendance at District Conventions and various Free Conferences, and the like, I have made a few observations regarding WELS pastors' attitudes toward ministerial labor on behalf of the congregation. Of course, this is anecdotal evidence, so should be taken with a grain of salt, but maybe these observations resonate with others who frequent this board.

Attitude #1: Pastor as Omni-minister. In my observations, this either occurs when (a) the congregation assumes that the Pastor is the only individual qualified to be Pastor, Teacher, Evangelist, etc., and forces the pastor to do everything, or, (b) when there is legitimately no one else in the congregation qualified to meaningfully participate in these forms of Public Ministry, forcing the pastor to shoulder all of these responsibilities. In every case I have encountered, when speaking with the pastors or the congregation members involved, they have indicated that their congregation was in the throes of a miserable and slow death. They have all been rural congregations.

My understanding from my current pastor is that, in many ways, this idea is a holdover from Pioneer Era American Lutheranism, when the Pastor was, quite seriously, the only one educated beyond the 8th grade, perhaps in the region, and quite literally the only one qualified to fill these ministry roles. He was responsible for multiple congregations, rode a circuit on horseback, knew everyone in the territory, and was responsible for personally performing nearly all ministerial work for the various congregations under his care. Such Pastors were quite motivated, it seems, and they generally had the luxury of polite reception when they visited people and enjoyed almost universal reverence of their position as Called Workers. Over time, these early congregations formed their organizational structures and procedures around the idea that the Pastor is the only one who does the work, and in this way have passed this same idea to following generations -- more as an organizational artifact than anything else. In my experience, these older rural congregations, by and large, seem to be the ones that are in trouble.

Attitude #2: Everyone is a Minister. To reinforce John's observation, yes, I have perceived some definite problems related to this attitude. But first, let me make clear, I am not one of those who insists that the "laity" are to do nothing more than sit stationary like dung on log while the "clergy" run about as the only bona fide ministers in Christendom. And here I make a quasi-Catholic distinction between Laity and Clergy, as if seminary training bestows ministerial right or privilege by some sort of pseudo- apostolic succession. Luther is said to have abolished the laity. By my reading of Scripture, this is true: all Christians are Priests in the Order of the Universal Priesthood of All Believers. By definition, therefore, all believers, as Priests, perform ministerial function. Further, to be a Disciple of Christ is, by definition, to heed His call, to be Fishers of Men, placing all Christians squarely in the ministry of evangelism. Further still, true and undefiled religion is defined by St. James as care for those in need, like widows and orphans, placing all Christians squarely in the ministry of serving others for the sake of Christ. I suppose I could go on, but that would be unnecessary. I don't think there can be any question, that all Believers are, indeed, ministers. The question is one of context. Certainly, in the context of their personal lives, all Christians are "Ministers." However, does this mean they are therefore "Ministers" in the context of the congregation? My reading of the Scriptures indicates a fairly clear answer on this as well. The answer is "No." Whether one favors the Missouri or Wisconsin position on Church and Ministry, I think that it is fairly clear from Scripture that no one is a "Minister" in the context of the congregation who performs any such functions without a Divine Call. Despite my Charismatic background, I have never met anyone with a legitimate Immediate Call, but such an individual would have verifiable miracles and other such wonders attending his claim to such. For the rest of us, a Call to Ministry on behalf of others comes in the form of the Mediate Call. Such a call is extended by a calling body, like the local congregation, after such a body has identified a need, determined approval criteria, examined the qualifications of candidates who would potentially fill said need, and then, after prayerful consideration, extended a Call to the individual they feel lead to select. Public Ministers are only those who are overtly Called and Approved as such by the congregation.

And here is the problem I have perceived with the "Everybody is a minister" attitude: all too often, the Public Ministry is discussed, and ministries even identified, outside of the context of the Divine Call, leading pastors and congregations to the mistaken conclusion that individuals conducting the ministry of their personal lives are doing so under the auspices of the congregation. Personal ministry and Public Ministry are becoming confused, because everyone is a "minister" in the congregation, with or without a Divine Call. The result can be seen in the nonsense quoted by posters in one of John's recent blogs: some sadly mistaken pastor from eastern Wisconsin thinks that janitors, secretaries, baristas, etc., are Public Ministers -- he not only thinks it, but preaches it! If such is being promoted as Scripture teaching, it must certainly be doctrinal innovation. I have never read any such thing, not in the Bible, not by recognized Lutheran theologians of the past, nowhere. Individuals acting without a Divine Call have no right to call themselves Public Ministers, and, at the very least, it is disorderly to think of them as such.

Anyway, the result of this attitude, as I have observed it, is that Pastors and congregations visibly slack off, relying on -- leaching off of, really -- the work that individuals in the congregation do in the context of the ministry of their personal lives, all the while calling it the "congregation's work," when, in reality, the congregation, including the pastor, is really doing nothing, is not planning to do anything, and have called no one (other than the pastor, perhaps) to do what they claim to be doing. Naturally, as John, and others, have pointed out, the result in these situations is that the Pastor and congregation takes little organizational responsibility for ministerial tasks that have been given to the congregation in Scripture.

Attitude #3: Nobody does anything --or-- “Hyper-Fideism”. Finally, a third observation I have made over recent years concerns an abuse of the very true teaching that it is the Holy Spirit alone, working by Means of the Gospel in Word and Sacrament, Who creates and strengthens faith, teaches and reminds us of all that Christ taught, and causes the Church (Universal) to grow. The abuse begins in the form, “We are all sinners, everything we do wreaks of sin, and falls short what God expects. Nothing we do is the right thing. Yet, the Holy Spirit works through Word and Sacrament, despite our bumbling efforts, and causes the Church to grow, in His time and in His way.” So far, so good. But it continues, “Therefore, it doesn't matter what we do. The Holy Spirit will bless it. Even in our failure to do anything at all (since everything we do represents failure), the Holy Spirit will work in the interest of Christ's Bride.” Even left as it stands, I think there is room to receive such statements without offense -- actually, it is cause for great hope for a poor sinner like me!

In my experience, the abuse comes when these statements are used as an excuse to completely throw out the role of sanctified judgment in the stewardship of resources God has given the congregation -- not only over finances, but over the time and the talent that people offer to the congregation to conduct its ministry. I've personally witnessed this in a congregation I was a member of, and have seen it occur in others. All ideas, no matter how ridiculous or inefficient, are viewed as equivalent. Nothing is planned (indeed, Planning is almost viewed as a sin against the Holy Spirit). Congregational efforts are undirected and half-hearted, and there is no continuity year over year as one big idea is replaced by another, which in turn is happily displaced by no idea at all -- all because it doesn't really matter anyway. This lack of direction, with a dash of laziness, often reminds me of the slothful servant in the parable of the talents -- the one who actually thought that it was a good idea to bury the resources his Master had given him, with which he was expected to produce a return, rather than go to the effort to determine how best invest those resources in his Master's interests. Apparently, as the parable goes, the Master didn't think that all ideas were equivalent. It seems to me that this abuse of the Bible's teaching regarding the work of the Holy Spirit simply plays to man's weakness: under it, Board, Council, and Voter's meetings become social functions, congregational ministry grows sloppy, if it gets done at all, and people give up because it doesn't matter anyway. When it comes to the question of the role of human effort in a congregation's ministry, I think it is wise to remember that we are Laborers in the Master's fields, that our implements are the Means through which the Holy Spirit works, and that we are also Stewards of the resources God has given us, which He expects us to invest in the interest of employing those Means in the context of a congregation's ministry. Remembering this, I think, will give balance to the rather abusive laissez faire attitudes regarding the Holy Spirit's work, and impel congregations to consider how best to use their limited resources, that the Means of Grace and the Holy Spirit's work attending them, would be distributed more widely and more routinely. Thankfully, most congregations that I have visited do just this.

Anyway those are my thoughts and observations. Sorry if they were a little lengthy -- and I think I may have soap-boxed the last paragraph a little bit... Maybe others have more concise and helpful thoughts to offer.

Freddy Finkelstein

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Re: How much work should be expected from a pastor?

Post  Rob on Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:27 am

Freddy Finkelstein wrote:[justify]Since I was quoted by Rob, below (I was the one who responded to "Anonymous #2," which in Rob's cut-n-paste from the blog, is really Anonymous #1), I guess I'll offer my thoughts on this issue. I don't know if I will answer the question, How much work should be expected from a pastor?, but, as a result of a fairly great deal of business travel, attendance at District Conventions and various Free Conferences, and the like, I have made a few observations regarding WELS pastors' attitudes toward ministerial labor on behalf of the congregation. Of course, this is anecdotal evidence, so should be taken with a grain of salt, but maybe these observations resonate with others who frequent this board.
Freddy, your analysis is EXCELLENT! Very Happy

Rob
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Re: How much work should be expected from a pastor?

Post  Rob on Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:43 am

brucechurch wrote:Tuesday, March 6, 2007 When Synods Become Like Teacher Unions
http://lutherannotes.blogspot.com/2007/03/when-synods-become-like-teacher-unions.html
WELS is run by the pastors & teachers union. Most delegates to national and district conventions are members of the union. In my experience, even some lay delegates are former or retired teachers, therefore members of the union. (BTW, Synod Constitution prohibits this practice, yet it's done.) The COP is 100% union. The SC contains non-union members, and maybe this contributes to occasional friction between SC and COP. In our culture, unions expect two pay increases per year: longevity (step) increase, plus inflation cost of living adjustment. Under union rules, pay never goes down.

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Re: How much work should be expected from a pastor?

Post  Rob on Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:01 am

In my secular jobs, I usually have had a supervisor breathing down my neck. He and I might have contact once per day, or once per hour, or we might share the same office, in which case I'm supervised continuously. Although pastors are supervised by their "bishop" during vicar year, after ordination they're on their own, for the most part. No human supervisor breathes down their necks, "recalibrates" them daily, or tells them that they screwed up every time they make a bad decision or treat their office secretary poorly.

Although I did not appreciate it at the time, I was blessed with a short, high energy, red-haired, Napoleonic dynamo for a supervisor during my first full-time secular job after college graduation. As a matter of routine, I worked 16-hour days, sometimes longer. Every time I made a mistake, he told me. He got me started right. To my knowledge, there is no equivalent in the pastoral ministry.


Last edited by Rob on Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: How much work should be expected from a pastor?

Post  loud_lutheran on Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:38 pm

As near as I can figure, this is about the time our pastor spends on his official duties. Here is the background:

* Our church is very small, normally less than 45 people (including children) at a service
* Only one service each Sunday; no midweek service
* Bible class is held on Sunday before church; there is no Bible class during the summer
* Only a few shut-ins; probably about 4 or 5

Estimated time:

* 15 hours for weekly sermon. I think this is generous for the normal 20-30 minute sermon
* 5 hours for Bible class, when they are offered; usually we use synodical provided material
* 10 hours for weekly visits. Again, this is probably an over estimation.
* 5 hours miscellanous; occasional pastor conferences, this averages that time over 52 weeks.
* No canvassing of the neighborhood is done, no door-to-door, etc.

So, I would estimate, generously, about 35 hours of well defined service for our full time minister per week.

Our church does pay the amount stipulated by the synod for years of service. The church also pays the full amount of the health insurance premium, as well as all the utilites at the parsonage. However, our pastor has expressed dissatisfaction with his financial package.

When one includes all of the above, plus no-rent living, this is just as much as I make. Plus, our minister is quite a bit younger than myself, so he is actually doing better than I did when I was his age. Sometimes the pastor insinuates that us "in the worldly" professions are making much more than him, but that is not true. He then often mentions that he has a master's degree, but some of us are also highly educated, and most of us are NOT making 6 figure incomes, or anything close to that.

Has anyone noticed this being a problem with the younger generation of ministers? I have noticed where I work that often the younger people do not have a strong work ethic. Is this true among some of our ministery?

Granted no job is easy, and I feel for our minister (he has a lot of family issues). Any suggestions?

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Re: How much work should be expected from a pastor?

Post  Rob on Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:10 am

Our WELS church council listened in stunned disbelief as a middle-aged pastor reported that he could not chaperone our teen youth group's travel to the national youth rally because he could not be away from home for two consecutive weeks to attend both the youth rally and a Synod worship conference and as a consequence miss his daughter's birthday party. Did he know how ridiculous he sounded speaking to a room filled with active duty and former military men who were away from home routinely for 6-12 month deployments? In our minds and to our families, a mere 2-week excursion "didn't even count" as being away. The pastor disappointed us on two counts: first, that he felt that he was restricted in travel and his attendance at his daughter's birthday party was mandatory; second, that he chose a Synod event over our congregation's youth.

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Re: How much work should be expected from a pastor?

Post  honeyboyschwanzenheimer@g on Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:37 pm

loud_lutheran said:

> As near as I can figure, this is about the time our pastor spends on his official duties...

> Estimated time:

> * 15 hours for weekly sermon. I think this is generous for the normal 20-30 minute sermon
> * 5 hours for Bible class, when they are offered; usually we use synodical provided material
> * 10 hours for weekly visits. Again, this is probably an over estimation.
> * 5 hours miscellanous; occasional pastor conferences, this averages that time over 52 weeks.
> * No canvassing of the neighborhood is done, no door-to-door, etc.

> So, I would estimate, generously, about 35 hours of well defined service for our full time minister per week

35 hours?

loud_lutheran, don't take this as a slam, but the first sign of trouble in your post is the phrase: "As near as I can figure..." You probably are in no better position to estimate your pastor's "workweek" than he is in a position to estimate yours. (Okay, maybe a little better, but not much.)

My guess is that 35 hours is way low. You have preaching/teaching/shutins/conferences covered, but did you figure in counseling (formal and informal)? Bulletin/newsletter/agenda/report production? General communication and coordination? Consulting with other pastors on questions of casuistry? Prospect followup and recordkeeping? Time spent in prayer for members? Time spent not only in persoanl Bible study, but also in other areas of professional growth? Travel time? I could go on, but I won't. My point is that most pastors "work" way more than their members realize. If you don't believe that, ask their wives and kids. There are plenty of PK's in this synod who decided not to train for public minsitry because their kids rarely saw them. I hope that younger pastors are not repeating the mistakes of my generation, who tended to let our ministry/family balance list dangerously at the expense of our wives and children, but my guess is that most pastors today are still putting in 60-70 hours/week -- including those who lead smaller congregations like yours (remember that they generally don't have the admin/secretarial support that larger churches have).

Then again, maybe 60-70 hours per week is only average today. Maybe all our laymembers are clocking in about the same, and our teachers as well. It's my experience that many pastors have no idea how draining time spent in a classroom can be, teachers don't understand how many hours pastors put in, all called workers have no clue how overworked their members are, and lay members tend to underestimate the ministry hours of pastors and teachers.

My advice: talk to your pastor before you start estimating how much he is doing. You'll probably be surprised. (Don't forget to thank him!)

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Re: How much work should be expected from a pastor?

Post  Rob on Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:03 pm

honeyboyschwanzenheimer@g wrote:loud_lutheran said:
> So, I would estimate, generously, about 35 hours of well defined service for our full time minister per week

35 hours?

loud_lutheran, don't take this as a slam, but the first sign of trouble in your post is the phrase: "As near as I can figure..." You probably are in no better position to estimate your pastor's "workweek" than he is in a position to estimate yours. (Okay, maybe a little better, but not much.)

My guess is that 35 hours is way low.
My advice: talk to your pastor before you start estimating how much he is doing. You'll probably be surprised.
I would say that 35 hours per week is right for a congregation with 45 attending worship, no school, and an average number of shut-ins.

I don't think that the class year of the pastor has any affect on whether he is lazy, or a frenzied workaholic, or something in-between. It depends more on his personality and particular circumstances in each ministry.

I've seen pastors in small congregations idling in the Retired On Active Duty (ROAD) program.

Ive seen pastors in small mission congregations and in dual pastor parishes immerse themselves in Synod activities, a bottomless time sink, for 10 or more hours per week. Perhaps they did so because they felt that they were underemployed due to the circumstances of their ministry, and as such they were in a better position than their peers to step up and fill certain roles at district or national level.

A pastor who is a frenzied workaholic may micromanage too closely and require that whenever two or more are gathered together, they better include him in their meeting or discussion, otherwise he'll accuse them of mutiny.

It's wonderful when a congregation has a layman, a retired old gent, who putters around the property performing handyman tasks; however, if there is no such guy, then it often falls back on the pastor to open his toolbox and make trips to Home Depot.

My pastor surprised me when he told me that he could draft, print, and duplicate the weekly bulletin in ONE hour.

Other telltale signs of an underworking or overworking pastor:
-- Does he take his day off, plus one more (for golf and tennis dates), or do you catch him in his office on his day off?
-- Does he take his 3 weeks of summer vacation, plus the week after Christmas, plus the week after Easter, plus the weeks that his parents, in-laws, and kids visit, or does he tell you that he's taking his vacation in the parsonage this year so he can keep up with things?
-- When you make a hospital visit or a shut-in visit, and you ask the person who else from the congregation has visited, does the person reply, "No one, not even a pastor"?

An overworking pastor can be just as dangerous to a congregation as an underworking pastor. An overworking, overbearing pastor can exasperate layman and snuff out all sparks of initiative and leadership. Years later, the pastor will ask why it is that he's the only one doing any work or solving any problems.

Rob
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How about a joyful giver

Post  joyjoyjoy on Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:24 am

It is difficult to do anything in joy when someone is allowed to change everything you do or give not needed instruction. I have seen much killing of the spirit by no allowing joyful service because it doesn't meet with the approval of those in charge a select few. Hurry up and do more, no matter that you have a job and do it as I tell you and then it's never good enough. Oh and you better not have a tragedy in your life the Pastor's wife will tell you you're trying to get out of church work.

All the while their job is to work you like a slave. No comittee voting, no democratic participation but a dictatorship. Sad and they wonder why people are leaving WELS.

There's no caring nothing but drive to do what the special 3 want.

Yes I've discussed this with Pastor and so have many others. He's the Golden boy who does no wrong. Come and take a close look.

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